The Ezra Klein Show

Sean talks with writer and philosopher Ian Bogost about his new book The Small Stuff. They discuss what modern life has lost in its pursuit of convenience, efficiency, and optimization. From stick shifts to coffee cups, lawnmowers, and smartphones, Bogost argues that many of the small sensory experiences that once connected us to the physical world have quietly disappeared. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Ian Bogost We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The internet is changing. For years our primary gateway to the internet has been search engines: we ask a question, a list of websites pops up, and we choose which ones to click on. But we are rapidly headed towards a different model, one in which AI-generated answers to our questions are our primary gateway to the internet. How we got here starts with Google. In today’s episode, guest host Miles Bryan interviews journalist Ryan Broderick to discuss “Google zero,” a point in time when Google stops pointing us towards a list of search results and instead only produces AI-generated answers. Miles and Ryan discuss the evolution of the internet, how search engine optimization changed content production, why AI may fundamentally change how we find information, and what the future of search might look like. Host: Miles Bryan, Vox Senior Producer and Reporter Guest: Ryan Broderick, Editor-in-Chief of Garbage Day We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@

Sean Illing talks with neuroscientist Gregory Berns, author of The Self Delusion. Berns claims that the idea of a unified, persistent self is a kind of illusion, and that we are better understood as multiple selves at different moments in time, tied together by a story — which is what we call our identity. Sean and Greg also talk about whether the brain is a computer, how perception works, the limits of thinking too much about thinking, and what psychedelics can do to disrupt and change the stories we tell about ourselves. This episode originally aired in November of 2022. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling) Guest: Gregory Berns (@gberns), author; professor of psychology and distinguished professor of neuroeconomics, Emory University We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to

For years, right-wing influencers and politicians have pushed the conservative movement to have more controversial, anti-establishment views. Why are some of those figures now upset about where the movement has ended up? In today’s episode, guest host Bryan Walsh speaks with Vox Senior Correspondent Zack Beauchamp about conservatives who decry the extremist direction that the right is moving but refuse to recognize the role they played in pushing the movement in that direction. The two discuss US Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY), pundit Ben Shapiro, podcaster Candace Owens, the drivers of conservative extremism, and what the party might look like after Donald Trump. Guest Host: Bryan Walsh, Vox Senior Editorial Director Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Vox Senior CorrespondentRead Zack’s essay: The MAGA stars freaked out by their own movement We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions he

Birth rates are dropping and global population growth is slowing. Why? We’re heard all the different speculation: It’s the economy. It’s housing costs. It’s the feminists. But what if the biggest driver is that thing we all carry in our pockets? In today’s episode, guest host Christine Emba speaks with data journalist John Burn-Murdoch about declining fertility rates across vastly different cultures and economies. They discuss the role smartphones might play in this phenomenon, why governments have struggled to reverse the trend, and how dropping birthrates could change our economy and culture. Guest Host Christine Emba, columnist and author Guest: John Burn-Murdoch, Chief Data Reporter for The Financial Times We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube.Listen to The Gray Area ad-fre

AI was supposed to make our lives better. Instead, it’s made many of us scared and angry. Communities are protesting data centers across the country, and polling shows most Americans think AI is moving too fast.In today's episode, guest host Miles Bryan talks with independent journalist Jasmine Sun, who argues that public attitudes toward AI are undergoing a fundamental shift. Jasmine argues that AI is seen not simply as a technology to adopt, but as an elite political project to resist. The two discuss “AI populism,” the parallels with the Industrial Revolution, how public opinion about AI may affect US politics, and how the leaders of Silicon Valley are unprepared for the growing backlash against AI. Guest Host: Miles Bryan, Vox reporter and senior producer Guest:Jasmine Sun, journalist Find Jasmine’s Substack here: https://jasmi.news/ We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and

Sean talks with writer Liz Bruenig about faith, doubt, and the experience of believing in God in a modern, skeptical age. They discuss religious experience, the limits of science, the appeal of cynicism, Dostoevsky, beauty, mystery, and whether belief is ultimately a choice. They also explore why religion persists and whether living with uncertainty is itself a form of faith. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Elizabeth Bruenig (@ebruenig) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with journalist David Wallace-Wells about a looming climate event that could make 2027 one of the hottest years ever recorded. They discuss the return of El Niño, why some scientists are calling it a “Godzilla El Niño,” and what it could reveal about the future of global warming. They also explore climate adaptation, political complacency, extreme weather, technological progress, and whether humanity is prepared for the world it’s creating. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: David Wallace-Wells (@dwallacewells) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Who are America’s heroes? Who deserves our admiration and a place in our nation’s story? In today’s episode, guest host Jonquilyn Hill talks with constitutional law professor Kermit Roosevelt about his book The Nation That Never Was: Reconstructing America’s Story, which argues that America’s most important ancestors are not the founding fathers but the heroes of Reconstruction. The two discuss the importance of founding myths, why Americans are constantly fighting over “the real America,” and what it means to be American. Guest Host: Jonquilyn Hill, Host of Vox’s Explain It To Me podcast Guest: Kermit Roosevelt, constitutional law professor and author of The Nation That Never Was: Reconstructing America’s Story We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-f

Sean talks with Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy about the crisis lurking beneath America's political dysfunction. Murphy’s new book “Crisis of the Common Good” argues that the country is suffering from a collapse of connection, belonging, and purpose. They discuss loneliness, powerlessness, liberalism, democracy, Trumpism, corporate power, social media, and why so many Americans feel disconnected from their communities, their institutions, and each other. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Sen. Chris Murphy (@ChrisMurphyCT) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with Atlantic writer Charlie Warzel about the increasingly weird experience of being online. They discuss AI-generated content, bots, algorithms, the “dead internet theory,” and why so much of the web now feels artificial, manipulated, or unreal. They also explore psyops, conspiracy culture, social media, and the deeper question lurking beneath the AI boom: What are human beings actually for? Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Charlie Warzel (@cwarzel) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with journalist Jordan Ritter Conn about his book “American Men,” an intimate look at four men trying to figure out what manhood and masculinity have given them versus what they have cost them, and what to do with the gap between the men they think they’re supposed to be and the men they actually are. They talk about being fathers and sons as well as about violence, shame, ambition, male friendship, loneliness, and why being a “good man” might mean finally letting go of the desire to perform manhood. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Jordan Ritter Conn (@jordanconn) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit po

Who gets to decide what’s taught in college classrooms? And should the answer be different at private colleges than at public universities? In today’s episode, guest host Avishay Artsy speaks to philosophy professor Martin Peterson about why Texas A&M University asked him to stop teaching part of Plato’s “Symposium.” The two discuss academic freedom, who gets to decide what’s taught in university classrooms, and the value of Plato’s writing. The episode explores what happens when politics and educational values collide on campus. Host: Avishay Artsy, Vox Supervising Producer Guest: Martin Peterson, Professor of Philosophy at Texas A&M University We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about you

Sean talks with psychiatrist and neuroscientist Amir Levine about attachment, insecurity, and why our relationships shape us more than we think. They discuss his updated framework for anxious, avoidant, and secure attachment styles, why being ignored or excluded can feel so threatening, and how small everyday interactions can either calm the brain or send it spiraling. They also dig into childhood dynamics, therapy, conflict, friendship, loneliness, and different ways we can build more secure lives.Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Amir Levine, psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and author of Secure: the revolutionary guide to creating a secure life We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox M

Sean talks with writer Sigal Samuel about AI successionism, the growing movement that sees artificial intelligence as humanity’s rightful successor. They discuss why some people in the AI world think humanity should be replaced, how this vision borrows from old religious ideas about salvation and transcendence, and why artificial intelligence is a dangerous thing to worship.Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel) Click here to read Sigal’s article on AI successionism. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with dream scientist Michelle Carr about what dreams are, why we have them, and what they might reveal about the mind. They discuss nightmares, lucid dreaming, memory, consciousness, and whether dreams are just random brain noise or a kind of overnight therapy. They also explore why dreams feel so real and what the strange world of sleep can teach us about waking life.Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Michelle Carr We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Americans have absorbed the Protestant work ethic: the idea that our value as human beings – and our eventual salvation – is determined by how hard we work. Political philosopher Elizabeth Anderson explains how this evolved, why it pervades everything, and why it’s no longer serving us.This episode originally aired in January of 2024. Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)Guest: Elizabeth Anderson, professor of public philosophy at the University of Michigan. We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sean talks with writer Christine Emba about the strange and increasingly anti-social world young people are inheriting online. They discuss the rise of “looksmaxxing,” the manosphere, Gen Z’s retreat from dating and sex, and how the internet has transformed what might have been normal insecurities into a permanent state of anxiety and self-optimization. Along the way, they explore loneliness, intimacy, masculinity, social media, and what happens to a society when human connection starts to feel unbearable. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Christine Emba (@ChristineEmba) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoice

Sean talks with University of Chicago psychologist Nicholas Epley about the strange gap between our need to be social and how social we choose to be. They explore why we underestimate how good conversations will feel, why awkwardness looms so large in our minds, and how small acts of connection can make us happier, less lonely, and more open to the people around us. Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Nicholas Epley We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday.Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/members. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Almost a decade ago, Tom Nichols warned that Americans were losing respect for expertise. He didn’t expect things to get this bad. Sean talks with Nichols about his 2017 book “The Death of Expertise” and what’s happened since: why people don’t just distrust experts but actively push back against them, how the internet turns bad ideas into communities, and why a society that can’t agree on basic facts can’t function for long. They also dig into the deeper causes: loneliness, narcissism, and the weird psychology of living in a world where everything “just works.” Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling) Guest: Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) We would love to hear from you. To tell us what you thought of this episode, email us at thegrayarea@vox.com or leave us a voicemail at 1-800-214-5749. Your comments and questions help us make a better show. And you can watch new episodes of The Gray Area on YouTube. New episodes drop every Monday and Friday. Listen to The Gray Area ad-free by becoming a Vox Member: vox.com/membe